Does God Predetermine Our Sins?

Steve Camp July 14, 2010 at 2:03 pm

Les:

Thank you for posting this video by Piper. He always has some good and helpful things to share on most subjects.

Two things that stand out to me on this video that I think must warrant some concern. 1. It would not be biblically right to say that the Lord has predetermined all of our besetting sins. James 1:13-15 says, “13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. 14 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. 15 Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.”

God is not the author of sin nor does He predetermine our besetting sins. We alone are responsible for the transgressions in our lives.

2. I think the better term biblically (which John does touch on at the end of the clip) is sovereignty. God uses all things, even the actions of the wicked, to accomplish His perfect will (Rom. 9:13-22; Gen. 50:20).

Would be interested in your thoughts…

Les Lanphere July 14, 2010 at 2:35 pm

hmm… such a hard topic.

He seems to be saying “Every sinful thing is ultimately GOVERNED by God.”

I’m certainly still working through these things, but from what I understand, we can say God is in control of sin (as He is in control of all things), without Him actually forcing a man to commit sin. Therein lies the mystery.

Our sins are actually a part of God’s plan, yet we are the ones sinning of our own volition, and God remains holy and innocent.

For example: Pharoah’s sins were PURPOSED by God.

“For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”" -Romans 9:17

And when we’re confronted with this seeming puppeteering, we ask the obvious question:

“Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” -Romans 9:19

And of course Paul’s answer is for us to shut our mouths and bow to our Creator’s sovereignty.

Perhaps Piper didn’t clearly remind the listeners that God is not the author, or executer of sin, but everything he said seems to line up with the Biblical revelation… mysterious as it may be.

Of course this is my understanding, I could be wrong.

Joe King July 14, 2010 at 6:23 pm

What we have to remember is that God is outside of time and not confined to it by any way. That is why it is hard to comprehend for us. It is possible for him to be outside of time and working in the present at the same time, yet know of the ending. This is the magnificent holy one that we are talking about.

Larry Gales July 14, 2010 at 7:29 pm

I’ve been wondering the same thing. If God is sovereign and creator of all, what about sin? It really has me puzzled. If God is creator, then, sin had to be created…right? We know God knows everything. Then, what about sin? Did it just “happen?” Or did it already exist? We know the bible states, as you’ve mentioned in the above Scriptures, that God uses evil for His purpose, but is not the author of it. Did the devil “create” sin? As you can tell, I have a bunch of questions, and it leaves me without answers. Maybe I’m just overlooking something?

Les Lanphere July 14, 2010 at 7:35 pm

Great stuff. Joe, can you elaborate on your “outside of time” argument? What are you saying about the sin issue?

Steve Camp July 14, 2010 at 7:47 pm

Les:

Good thoughts. I think you’ve struck the right balance here.

I think part of the problem is that John was not clear in his video explanation defining what he believes predeterminism is and how it relates to our besetting sins. I.e. Does he believe that predetermined means “first cause” or does he mean “sovereignty” or “ordained”? Massive difference in those assertions.

I may have wrongly interpreted his meaning to mean primary cause as opposed to God can ordain something He doesn’t cause in a first cause scenario. It’s the tension of Acts 2:23 “this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men” – Lam. 3:37-39 “Who has spoken and it came to pass, unless the Lord has commanded it? Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that good and bad come? Why should a living man complain, a man, about the punishment of his sins?” – and James 1:13-15 that I quoted above.

Sovereignty over sin? Absolutely. Ordaining good and bad? Yes. But attributing to God first cause action in regards to sin as he paralleled the example of creation was I think, IMHO, an unfortunate corollary.

Good discussion this… Important.

Steve Camp July 14, 2010 at 7:59 pm

Joe and Larry:

Thanks for your comments.

Here is a key question for us all to ponder in this discussion: can God ordain something that He did not cause?

Example: God ordained that Joseph would be sold into slavery. But He did not fill the hearts of his brothers with the sinful intentions to do the sinful act of lying and betrayal. They alone were culpable for their evil actions, desires, and thoughts. At the end of this powerful story, we read in Gen. 50:20 what “they meant it for evil, God meant it for good.” There we have God’s “predetermined” purpose brought to light though He was not the primary cause for the wrong-doing by Joseph’s brothers.

I believe it’s the same issue concerning our besetting sins…

Joe King July 14, 2010 at 8:28 pm

We know that it is impossible for God to sin. Sin has been around since before the earth was created because that’s when inquity was found in lucifer. When he was expelled from heaven and how that fits into our earthly timeline is not clear although Jesus said satan fell out of heaven like lightning.

My outside of time argument is that since God is not confined to time, our perception will always be skewed.

As for how it relates to sin and I don’t have scriptural evidence here, I believe that since in the future in heaven, we will be prevented from sinning, that we are being allowed to sin now. That is what free will is.

Paul Paradise July 14, 2010 at 9:04 pm

I find this discussion interesting. It is a question I have struggled with on more than one occasion; is God responsible for our sin to fulfill His Sovereign Will in our life, world, and/or course of the Gospel among men?

I was particularly interested in Les Lanphere’s comment, based on Paul’s words in Romans 9 in regards to the Lord’s dealing in the life of Pharaoh. The question is complex in that, while I don’t believe God made Pharaoh to sin (thereby being God’s choice), I am strongly aware of God’s acts in his life that made sure he “would” sin! Consider these to refrences from the moses vs. Pharaoh account:

Exodus 10:1 KJV
1 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him:

Exodus 11:10 KJV
10 And Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh: and the LORD hardened Pharaoh’s heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go out of his land.

I have always heard preachers say that Pharaoh hardened his heart on the first nine plagues, but then God hardened Pharaoh’s heart on the tent plague. But Exodus 10:1 shows that God was involved in more than just the last plague!

Here is the issue: God knew moses would harden his heart and not let Israel go as God had commanded him to do so through His servant Moses on at least some of the plagues. But you can not get away from the fact that on the others, the ones where God hardened Pharaoh’s heart, Pharaoh had no control!

God, via Moses, told Pharaoh to, “let My people go!”, a direct command and one that most be obeyed to be “holy and righteous” (non-sin). But then God hardened Pharaoh’s heart making it impossible for Pharaoh to BE “obedient”; hence forcing him to sin! Now God did not perform the “sin” but He restrained any other option from Pharaoh; and that, in his very heart!

I think that is why Paul made his statement about us questioning in God. If God choice to do this, who are we to abject? But we also know that their is “no unrighteousness in Him”. He is Pure, Infinite, Holiness! But His sovereignty always comes first, even if it means He must stifle brighouse responses from others to ensure His Will in carried out; hence the creation of Lucifer/Satan.

a voice in the wilderness of the 21st century;
Paul Paradise

Paul Paradise July 14, 2010 at 9:18 pm

Sorry, I re-read my response and found a few typos. Unfortunately, I did not find an “edit” option. Can you make the following changes please:

Pg 6:
Here is the issue: God knew ‘Pharaoh’ (not Moses) would harden his heart…

Pg 8:
He must stifle ‘our’ (not brighouse) responses from others to ensure His Will in carried out…

Lastly, moses should be Moses in all locations.

Sorry, I have been working on a roof all day in 95+ heat so my fingers are not responding correctly. Well, I guess it gives me a small idea how the Jews felt building pyramids in the desert for Pharaoh! lol

Kent Pletcher July 14, 2010 at 9:49 pm

Helpful terminology…passive and active decrees. God is not the author of sin. However, he decreed that it would enter or else it would not have.

God can stop sin, but decrees not to all of the time. We know this truth from Abraham and Abimilech.

God is not the active agent in the sins of mankind. However, he passively allows it to occur or else He would not be omniscient or omnipotent.

Romans 9…Vessel of honor prepared actively by God … Vessel of dishonor prepared passively by God.

Les Lanphere July 14, 2010 at 10:01 pm

Those are very helpful terms, indeed, Kent.

If we were talking infra vs supralapsarianism I might elaborate on the last statement, but as it is, this is all super helpful.

Thanks for the comments all. Great conversation so far.

Kent Pletcher July 14, 2010 at 10:02 pm

My previous post was without “Paul Paradise’s” remarks being present. Allow me to add…

It is wrong to say God forced Pharaoh to sin. God does not force to sin because He hardens Pharaoh’s heart. God hardening someone’s heart is as easy as removing His restraining hand, whichnis not forcing someone to sin.

Also, the only thing that forces us to sin is the depravity of our own heart. We always choose what we think is best for us. In an unregenerate state we always choose sin because we hate God and hate righteousness. That is proven in the cross of Jesus Christ.

The glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ…nailed to a cross because of the wickedness of mankind.

Jeffi July 14, 2010 at 11:04 pm

Wow. Great topic!
Through the many scriptural examples a common theme can be noted. God works on the heart. As Kent noted, His work on the heart doesn’t necessarily = cause.

Steve quoted from James, “But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.” The cause is clearly evil desire. However, the “cause” can be manipulated. In other words, God can cause the cause without being the Author of sin. Or more clearly, God can cause our desires to shift and we (by nature) will choose to “conceive and give birth to sin.”

On the other hand, these evil desires are at work in us from birth, but they are limited by God through “universal grace” according to His will. We could all easily be Hitlers having a nature like his, but by this grace, lawlessness is at “mystery” level for most of us and hasn’t been fully unleashed, according to the will of God.

So then, God can work on the heart (even temporarily), influencing our desires and controlling what we do or don’t do. He is sovereign and we are still accountable. In fact, I believe all that’s needed to harden a heart is for God to withhold His influence. I personally believe He does this with such perfection that only particular desires remain leading to particular sin.

I also believe that understanding the progression of time is a great help in grasping this subject!

Jeffi July 14, 2010 at 11:17 pm

I should clarify “progression of time”

What I do in the next 5 minutes has an impact on the future for myself and others. Their response impacts others, etc., etc.
Quick example: God ordains that I stub my toe on the way out the door keeping me from getting into a wreck and killing the next young “Spurgeon”. Millions are affected by the gospel because I stubbed my toe!  he he

Tanner July 15, 2010 at 9:55 am

I think Piper makes a good example of God’s perfect ordaining when He speaks of the Crucifixion. I find it impossible to conceive, quite possibly because my mind is not capable of it, that God left Christ’s sacrifice up to the decisions of men to sin or not to sin.

Piper says, “These people didn’t know what they were doing, but God knew what they were doing.” And then goes on to mention what Steve referenced, “What you meant for evil, God meant for good.”

So, because scripture says that God can tempt no man, and because Sin is against Gods nature we must acknowledge that the men who nailed Jesus to the cross were acting on their own and are completely responsible for the most horrible sin ever committed. But, we must also try to wrap our brain around the fact that God left nothing up to chance. He didn’t say to himself “Well I’ll put Jesus on trial with Pilot and boy I sure do hope that Pilot chooses to sin so that today my Son can save mankind, but if not today we’ll try tomorrow.” No…that is ridiculous, God meticulously orchestrated every lashing and every nail driven but somehow didn’t force anyones hand. Possible a limiting of his grace upon the men who committed the sin or maybe a narrowing of the path…the answer I don’t know, what I do know is that God didn’t leave anything up to chance because scripture is clear that He has not. God’s will is not bound by whether we give into temptation or not.

Les Lanphere July 15, 2010 at 10:03 am

A couple more interesting verses that might apply to this conversation:

“Instead you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we will live and do this or that.” -James 4:15

“The LORD kills and brings to life;
he brings down to Sheol and raises up.” -1 Sam. 2:6

“The Lord has made everything for its own purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil.” -Prov. 16:4

Les Lanphere July 15, 2010 at 10:10 am

Very well stated, Tanner. Great input.

Steve Camp July 15, 2010 at 10:41 am

This has been a very good discussion – the iron sharpening the iron. Thank you all for keeping tone and truth both honoring to the Lord. I so delight in good biblical/theological discussions as this one. I learn and benefit from your comments here. What a delight to engage with brothers and sisters in the Lord; encouraging one another from God’s Word on difficult issues such as this one.

Tanner: some good thoughts brother.
Les: very helpful verses as well.

You both speak to sovereignty and ordaining in a manner consistent with the Word of God. I completely share those views.

John Frame when writing on this subject echoes concern of using nonbiblical language in trying to support biblical doctrines. Words have meaning; and some words wrongly applied can be misleading on theological issues (i.e. predetermined specific besetting sins vs sovereign over all the affairs of men). He also cautions against a doctrinal hastiness when discussing rich, important themes such as this one.

God is sovereign over all things; and yet, He has not predetermined by first cause anyones besetting sins; but still, has ordained all things for His divine purpose and glory. To us, this remains – a mystery… Man is responsible, culpable and architect of the wickedness of their own hearts (Jer. 17:9-10; Mt. 15:15-20; Rom. 3:10-19).

The confession that our church has adopted for its own summation of doctrine (1689 LBCF) says the following on this subject:

Chapter 5: Of Divine Providence
4._____ The almighty power, unsearchable wisdom, and infinite goodness of God, so far manifest themselves in his providence, that his determinate counsel extendeth itself even to the first fall, and all other sinful actions both of angels and men; and that not by a bare permission, which also he most wisely and powerfully boundeth, and otherwise ordereth and governeth, in a manifold dispensation to his most holy ends; yet so, as the sinfulness of their acts proceedeth only from the creatures, and not from God, who, being most holy and righteous, neither is nor can be the author or approver of sin.
( Romans 11:32-34; 2 Samuel 24:1, 1 Chronicles 21:1; 2 Kings 19:28; Psalms 76;10; Genesis 1:20; Isaiah 10:6, 7, 12; Psalms 1:21; 1 John 2:16 )

5._____ The most wise, righteous, and gracious God doth oftentimes leave for a season his own children to manifold temptations and the corruptions of their own hearts, to chastise them for their former sins, or to discover unto them the hidden strength of corruption and deceitfulness of their hearts, that they may be humbled; and to raise them to a more close and constant dependence for their support upon himself; and to make them more watchful against all future occasions of sin, and for other just and holy ends. So that whatsoever befalls any of his elect is by his appointment, for his glory, and their good.
( 2 Chronicles 32:25, 26, 31; 2 Corinthians 12:7-9; Romans 8:28 )

6._____ As for those wicked and ungodly men whom God, as the righteous judge, for former sin doth blind and harden; from them he not only withholdeth his grace, whereby they might have been enlightened in their understanding, and wrought upon their hearts; but sometimes also withdraweth the gifts which they had, and exposeth them to such objects as their corruption makes occasion of sin; and withal, gives them over to their own lusts, the temptations of the world, and the power of Satan, whereby it comes to pass that they harden themselves, under those means which God useth for the softening of others.
( Romans 1:24-26, 28; Romans 11:7, 8; Deuteronomy 29:4; Matthew 13:12; Deuteronomy 2:30; 2 Kings 8:12, 13; Psalms 81:11, 12; 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12; Exodus 8:15, 32; Isaiah 6:9, 10; 1 Peter 2:7, 8 )

Les Lanphere July 15, 2010 at 10:47 am

Beautiful. Praise God for our Biblically submissive, confessional Church.

Marsha Iddings July 15, 2010 at 11:34 am

I can’t imagine trusting in a God who isn’t in control of everything!

Jeffi July 15, 2010 at 2:03 pm

Those are awesome confessions Steve! So well put.

I do have a concern, however. If the explanation must include words like “sovereign” & “ordained”, but disclude “predetermined”, aren’t we stating that God is “merely sovereign” without specific intent? Or rather, to say that God has not “predetermined by first cause” means that He is subject to OUR choice of sin and must adjust His plan accordingly. Imagine the implications of that.
Is it possible that God predetermined and is the first cause or initiator of His plan, but is not the DIRECT cause of the sin itself?
(And again, this is in light of the truth that God influences the desires of the heart to accomplish His purpose.)

Simply said, each sin leads to different outcomes, ultimately ending in death. If the sin is not predetermined, then how can the outcome be?
I don’t mean to sound argumentative. Intent seems to be what’s in question and I would hate to overlook that.

Also, I realize that this POV relies heavily on logic. If scripture says otherwise, please feel free to share
Thanks for letting me post, brothers!

Jeffi July 15, 2010 at 2:11 pm

Also, can someone tell me what the “withdrawn gifts” in confession #6 are referring to? 

Paul Paradise July 15, 2010 at 5:02 pm

[quote Tanner]
He didn’t say to himself “Well I’ll put Jesus on trial with Pilot and boy I sure do hope that Pilot chooses to sin so that today my Son can save mankind, but if not today we’ll try tomorrow.” No…that is ridiculous, God meticulously orchestrated every lashing and every nail driven but somehow didn’t force anyones hand.
[End Quote]

Wow! I love that! So true! Ok we all agree I am sure that without Christ, “we are all dead in trespasses and sins”, so yes we are responsible for all our sins and there is no unrighteousness in God.

But, God is sovereign in all things through all time so He has to be somewhat responsible for “allowing” sin. For instance: Who is responsible for Jesus’ death? We are in that He died for our sins; our sins killed Him. But Jesus said, “no one takes my life from me, I lay it down freely…”; so Jesus is responsible for His death. Yet in John 3:16 it is God who gave (sacrificed) His son because He loved us; so the Father killed Jesus. All are true based on “perspective”!

Same here. Who is responsible for sins, such as “stubbing a toe” and having a temper tantrum, “not getting into a wreck and killing the next young ‘Spurgeon’” because of the sin. I am responsible for loosing my cool, getting mad and refusing to go to work, God is responsible, because He blinded my eye to the Tonka Toy He had my kid leave in front of the door.

Bottom line is, that without God’s sovereign control through the seconds / millenium, sin can not happen on cue (as in crucifixion) or even at all.

[Quote Kent]
We always choose what we think is best for us. In an unregenerate state we always choose sin because we hate God and hate righteousness. That is proven in the cross of Jesus Christ.
[End Quote]
Question Kent, how does this play out in the reference you gave it in regards to Pharaoh? I’m thinking Moses was there too and he did what God said without the cross of Jesus and having not been born again? I know the answer is that the Holy Spirit was upon him. But you see how general “churchy” sounding doctrine is not always correct. Pharaoh did what he did at certain plagues because God hardened his heart, not Pharaoh. Those are God’s words not mine. God took responsibility for Pharaoh’s disobedience. He did not judge Pharaoh as responsible at all. Rather, He set him up if you will, to fall intentionally.

Kent Pletcher July 15, 2010 at 6:52 pm

@Paul Paradise…
Just because the cross had not occurred does not mean Moses was unregenerate. Salvation is the same in the OT and NT, by grace. OT saints trusted in the coming Messiah and His redemption and NT saints look back on the Messiah who came and His redemption.

Regarding Pharaoh, I think you’re reading into Exodus to say God took responsibility for Pharaoh’s sin. In Romans, Paul said that people fall into deeper sin because of their continuing in it and God removes His restraining hand.

In other words, God does restrain us from sin and does not restrain us from sin. God hardened Pharaoh’s heart by removing His restraining hand. When Pharaoh was pressed by the plagues he raised his hand and said uncle…I give up. Then, as soon as God removed the plague Pharaoh changed his mind and went back on his word. The removing of the plague (God being merciful) was what hardened Pharaoh’s heart.

Pharaoh chose to sin against God and chose to harden his heart by trampling on the mercy of God. God does not take responsibility for Pharaoh’s sin.

Jeffi July 15, 2010 at 10:18 pm

Kent, I believe God restrains us from sin or lifts His restraints in order that we may act upon our evil desires, but I disagree with you on the means by which He does this. If I understood you correctly, you believe that God simply changed the circumstances to harden pharoah’s heart. However, at the beginning of Exodus 7 we see that God predetermined to harden pharoah’s heart and did so before He sent a single plague.

Also, to say that salvation in the OT was exactly the same as the NT is incorrect. The OT saints were indeed saved by faith in the coming Messiah, through the power of the Spirit, but there is no scripture that confirms they were regenerate. Not any that I’ve seen anyway. We can see that the Spirit was with men, but not necessarily in them. For instance, Saul was annointed by the Spirit, but then later abandoned. The promise of “I will never leave you or forsake you” was not given until Christ & comes only by regeneration and rebirth. Furthermore, Christ said that without His death the Holy Spirit could not be sent. This must refer to regeneration, as He also explained to His disciples that the Spirit was already with them, but will one day be in them.

Anyway, just wanted to mention these variations as they can be confusing. Don’t know how much of an effect it’ll have on the convo 

Kent Pletcher July 16, 2010 at 9:02 am

@Jeffi…
My response to hardening was not to be an all inclusive dissertation. I merely gave examples of how God hardens hearts. I gave the example of Romans 1 as well as Exodus. My disagreement, mostly, was that “Paul Paradise” was saying God took responsibility for Pharaoh’s sin.

Also, just because God stated that He was going to harden Pharaoh’s heart does not do away with the means by which He does the hardening. God being merciful in removing the plagues was a means to hardening Pharaoh’s heart. It’s repeated over and over in the text. when did Pharaoh harden his heart? Right after God removed the plague. As soon as God removed the plague Pharaoh got prideful and sinful and went back on his word.

I’m, also, not saying that God merely changes the context and hopes men make the decisions He needs them to. However, we need to be careful to not give God credit for unrighteousness.

Regarding regeneration, it is the only way that someone can be born again. it is the only way that someone can trust in the Messiah. Remember that Jesus taught regeneration to Nicodemus. Jesus was amazed that this OT professor did not understand rebirth. Interesting that Jesus scorned Nicodemus for not understanding rebirth in the OT.

I think the next topic needs to be on depravity.

Levi July 16, 2010 at 9:20 am

I know you and I have discussed this to some extent, and I don’t want to push anyone away from what your intent in posting this video is…

But this is probably the most disconcerting truth that Calvinism has to offer, in my opinion. It’s that one thing that my brain can’t get past. I remember studying this, and I could barely eat or sleep trying to wrap my mind around that statement. “God ultimately governs sin, and man is ultimately responsible for it.”

I didn’t necessarily want to begin a discussion aside from what is already being discussed, I just wanted to comment. Thanks Les for always keeping me on my toes.

Les Lanphere July 16, 2010 at 9:45 am

Thanks for the comment, Levi.

I totally understand what you’re saying, and I think Piper’s advice on how to center it is great.

No doctrine is fully realized, I’d say, until it’s directed to the Cross, since Christ is our clearest comprehension of God.

So yeah, I’m saying God is orchestrating all things, including sin, for a greater good. For the good of His people, and ultimately for His glory(Romans 8:28). I think it’s pretty unequivocal that without sin in the world, God would not be glorified to the extent that He will be. And we even see that God indeed subjected the world to the fall/sin for a reason.

“For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God.” -Romans 8:20-21

I gather from this and other Biblical revelation that the fall was God’s idea, and that God would receive glory by saving His elect people from their sins. Something like: The love of an obedient son (unfallen Adam) is less glorifying than the love of a son who is helpless and disobedient and is then saved and received back by the gracious sacrificial love of the Father (The prodigal son comes to mind).

And yes, the other half of the equation is that God is not to be blamed for our sins, we, alone, have made the choice to disobey, and the guilt is ours.

I know it’s a brain buster, but I think we’re not supposed to reconcile it. It’s not theological laziness when we’ve simply come to the end of what God has shown us AND we’re asking Biblical questions in line with Biblical arguments(Romans 9:19). This is a mystery we’re aloud to stop at(because the Bible does) and just bow in reverence (Romans 9:20).

This doctrine brings unimaginable comfort when properly understood… but I hear your heart.

What I don’t understand, Levi, is based on the Biblical counsel, what other option do we have to believe?

Les Lanphere July 16, 2010 at 9:51 am

And again, the comfort here comes in knowing that if You trust in Christ, you’re on the unshakeable, bullet-proof, carried-to-the-end-no-matter-what-the-situation-looks-like end of the providential sovereignty of God.

“And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.” -Romans 8:28

That’s not sentimental, it’s jaw dropping, and should make us invincibly emboldened.

Kent Pletcher July 16, 2010 at 10:20 am

@Levi…I hope this helps. It was tremendously helpful to me years ago.

William Shedd’s Dogmatic Theology…
“It is objected that if man is unable to keep the law he is not obligated to keep it. This depends upon the nature of the inability and its cause.
If man were destitute of reason, conscience, will, or any of the faculties of a moral being, he would not be obligated. If he were internally wrought upon by an almighty being and prevented from obeying, he would not be obligated. If he were prevented by any external compulsion, he would not be obligated. If he had been created sinful, he would not be obligated. If he had been created indifferent either to holiness or sin, he would not have been obligated. None of these conditions obtain in the case of man. He was created holy, with plenary power to keep perfectly the moral law, and therefore was obligated to keep it. At the point of creation, ability and obligation were equal.
But if after creation in holiness and plenary power, any alteration be made in the original ratio between ability and obligation by the creature’s voluntary agency, this cannot alter the original obligation. If ability is weakened by an act of self-determination, obligation is not weakened. If ability is totally destroyed by self-determination, obligation is not destroyed. The latter is the fact in the case. There is a total inability, but it is not an original or created inability. It came to be by man’s act, not by God’s: “Man’s inability to restore what he owes to God, an inability brought upon himself, does not excuse man from paying the satisfaction due to justice; for the result of sin cannot excuse the sin itself” (Anselm, Why the God-Man? 1.24).”

mike July 16, 2010 at 11:59 am

Levi,
Trying to fully understand how God can determine all things and yet man be responsible for sin would leave anyone sleepless (-:

Think of it this way, every person who knows right from wrong and chooses to do wrong is guilty of sin. That God knew your choice and allowed your choice before time began; or in a sense predetermined your choice, has absolutely nothing to do with your responsibility to avoid evil and do good.

We all lie, but we don’t always lie. Thus we have the freedom to lie or not to lie. Our choice. We are to be judged by our choices. Thank God we have a Savior who has already paid the price our bad choices earned us!

Les Lanphere July 16, 2010 at 12:41 pm

Hey Kent,
I just noticed that you mentioned “I think the next topic needs to be on depravity.”

As a matter of fact we just featured an article on the topic last week. If you’d like to start a conversation, I’d be happy to promote it and hoepfully get a dicussion going.

http://crosschurch.net/does-man-have-a-free-will/

Jeffi July 16, 2010 at 12:43 pm

Kent, I see the point you’re making and I completely agree that God cannot be credited for unrighteousness. Nor do I believe He took responsibility for Pharoah’s sin. I do see, however, that God took responsibility for pharoah’s response which was sinful. It’s slight, but clear. The difference being cause & effect. For instance, I can trip you, but the inevitable fall is yours. Likewise, God can cause us to do His will, taking full responsibility of the outcome, without being the one who effectually responds. Make sense? In short, it is not sinful for God to trip His own creation (and this is anything but passive)

I’m glad to see that you have not limited God’s means of hardening, etc. Sorry if I misunderstood. Although I think it should be noted that while God can use circumstances to influence, it does not seem to be the case with Pharoah in the beginning of Exodus 7. This just so happens to be a great example of how God can influence the heart directly without being the author of sin.

On the regeneration thing. I’m contemplating that idea. If you have any OT scriptures that would support the idea, please share them!

Great talking to you brother.

Les Lanphere July 16, 2010 at 1:04 pm

@Jeffi

I personally feel like you’re going a step further than scripture allows.

If I trip you and you fall, I am certainly not innocent of your fall. That’s like saying that the murderer is innocent because he only plunged the knife in, it’s the victim’s heart that became faulty and stopped beating, so the guilt goes to the victim.

God isn’t the tripper, or the knife plunger, because if He is… He indeed IS the one to blame.

I feel you need to take a step back and rest in:

1. God has ordained all things that come to pass, including good and evil.(Lamentations 3:37-38)(Prov. 16:4)

2. God mysteriously orchestrates sinful hearts and actions to accomplish His purposes. (Romans 9:17)(Genesis 50:20)

3. God is seperate from, unable to, and does not tempt us to sin.(James 1:13-15)

You see, if you say God has immunity to what would normally be sinful to us, simply because He’s God and He’s doing it to His own creation, you’re now saying God can lie, commit injustice, and do any number of ‘wicked’ things, and remain innocent.

But this is the definition of Holiness: He is unique, set apart, and without imperfection. He is also the perfect judge of sin. He is unable to do anything contrary, or hypocritical to His holy nature.

side note: This conversation is leading me to worship.

Les Lanphere July 16, 2010 at 1:15 pm

Bear in mind, I’m very aware that there are plenty of times that Biblical killings are, in fact, directly from God’s hand. That is God judging sin. Not only CAN God do this, but He MUST if He is to remain holy in his interactions with us.

Kent Pletcher July 16, 2010 at 1:34 pm

I’m going to have to give Les a big Amen.

You cannot start philosophizing outside of Scripture and start attributing your conclusions to God.

As Les stated, if you trip me, I fell unwillingly and you tripped me purposefully. This is not according to Scripture when speaking about God.

Because every time I sin I do so willingly and because I think it is the best thing for me at that time and God forbids the sin I commit.

I could go into the decretive will and prescriptive will of God but I’ll leave that for another time.

@Les…
Great topic and nice words!

mike July 16, 2010 at 1:46 pm

Jeffi said that men were regenerate in the OT because the Spirit had not yet been given. She is assuming that the indwelling of the Spirit is the same as regeneration. Now why would one think that been born *OF* the Spirit mean the same as being *INDWELT* of the Spirit? before we are reborn we are haters of God and without faith in Him. Was Abraham of a different stripe than we? Or did OT saints get physically birthed loving God and hating sin? nah, they had hearts astray even as we did. Thus God changed them, and made them new -regeneration!

They just weren’t indwelt with the Holy Spirit but they had a new heart and spirit for they were re-birthed from above.

Paul Paradise July 16, 2010 at 4:47 pm

Hi Mike,

You stated that “Thus God changed them (like Abraham), and made them new -regeneration!”. I don’t believe that is possible. For a person to be regenerated, the old man passes away and the new man (Christ) takes over. But that is not possible before the new Man died for sin on the cross. David was a man after God’s own heart! He had faith from childhood. He would fit your hypothesis. However, he was also guilty of rape and murder many years later as king of Israel! I can’t accept that he was regenerated; not till after Jesus descended into hell and preached to the souls in Abraham’s Bosom then raised on the 3rd day as witnessed by the strange occurrence of “spirits” rising from the graves and going around town (David for one) for a stroll! lol

But as for the issue of sin vs God’s providence in sin-acts like Pilot’s and the “crucify Him” mob. That was much more than just God withholding His grace. It involved other beings as well. Such as Satan possessing Judas! Demons also influence and/or force man to sin by possession. That, as well as God’s sovereignty, proves there is no free will in the matter. Man sins because man is sinful. God made man that way. He could have given Adam and Eve access to the tree of life long before they ever seen a tree of good & evil! But God choice not to allow that. Does this mean I am saying God is unjust, unholy, guilty? God forbid! He makes the rules and He is Holy! Pure! and Just! He knew man was sinful before man committed any sins! Man is sinful by design and by birth…. in essence. He may not be ‘guilty’ of sin before an act, but he is sinful because he is flawed. To be Holy, requires much more than innocence (as before a 1st sin) it requires Holiness which only comes from God’s imparting Himself into the soul. God breath into Adam and he became a living soul, but until God indwells Adam (@regeneration), he is not holy.

Romans 7:19-21
For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

Thus the issue is one of God’s will vs. man’s will and is not a question of sin. Sin is simply lack of ‘being in a holy state’. It is evil only in relationship to God! It is not evil apart from God. Darkness is dark because there is no light. But darkness vanishes when exposed to Jesus. And lack of holiness (sinfulness) is evil when contrasted to God’s holiness.

Paul Paradise July 16, 2010 at 5:22 pm

Here is a vs to emphasis my last line above:

2 Corinthians 5:21 For he (God) hath made him (Jesus) to be SIN (not simply sinful, but UNHOLY) for us, who knew no sin (unholiness); that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Sin is unholiness! Therefore, sin can not be obedience to God and sin rebels against the Holiness of God. But those two are the ‘results’ of sin but not the sin in essence. So for God to harden Pharaoh’s heart is not sin. It is God making it impossible for Pharaoh to obey God as that is only possible by God’s imparted Holiness via His Spirit residing on Pharaoh. Hence God is Just in the act and Pharaoh is no less holy (more sinful) because of the act!

So Romans 3:4: “Let God be TRUE and everyman a liar” is a fact of reality not a motto!

Les Lanphere July 16, 2010 at 5:55 pm

@Paul, I know I’ve used it a few times already but something needs to be shown here.

“For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?” -Romans 9:17-21

Ok, the situation: God has risen Pharaoh up for the very purpose of resisting God and setting the stage for an awe-inspiring miraculous exodus to demonstrate the Glory of God to His chosen people. We’re good.

Now Paul does, indeed, say that God is the orchestrator, or the potter, if you will. And Paul is not blind to the difficulty of this statement. So he says we’ll ask, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?”.

In other words… If God is the one who planned Pharaoh’s sin, how could God still say He’s guilty for it?

Look closely here, Paul Paradise, because if what you’re saying is true, Paul’s answer should be… “Exactly! God didn’t hold him accountable!”

But that is certainly not Paul’s answer. He says. “Who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?”

The point is exactly the opposite of saying, God can’t hold Pharaoh responsible for the very sins God raised him up for… oh no, we ARE responsible, and we must bow to God’s sovereignty over His creation.

He has the right to deal with us in this way, and we have no right to question Him.

God is 100% Sovereign over Pharaoh’s sins in the Exodus story… and Pharaoh is 100% guilty for every single one of them, and He was (and will be) judged for them.

“to him who divided the Red Sea in two,
for his steadfast love endures forever;
and made Israel pass through the midst of it,
for his steadfast love endures forever;
but overthrew Pharaoh and his host in the Red Sea,
for his steadfast love endures forever;” -Psalm 136:13-15

Les Lanphere July 16, 2010 at 6:07 pm

Ooh… just found this. A little confession, Pharaoh style. Neither Moses nor God rebuke him for claiming guilt, but actually respond accordingly to His repentance.

“Then Pharaoh hastily called Moses and Aaron and said, “I have sinned against the LORD your God, and against you. Now therefore, forgive my sin, please, only this once, and plead with the LORD your God only to remove this death from me. So he went out from Pharaoh and pleaded with the LORD. And the LORD turned the wind into a very strong west wind, which lifted the locusts and drove them into the Red Sea. Not a single locust was left in all the country of Egypt.” -Exodus 10:16-19

Paul Paradise July 16, 2010 at 6:37 pm

Hi Les,

I am saying the same thing as you (and Paul) here> I agree with Paul’s response of “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?”. My emphasis is on the last part of that, “who has (capacity to) resist his will?”. The answer is no one. Pharaoh sure didn’t! He did what God chose for him to do. True, Pharaoh will stand before the thrown of God on judgement day and give an account for his sins, just as we all will if we don’t have Jesus as our propitiation for them. But that does not change the fact that God is sovereign! “So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills”! He hardened Pharaoh making it impossible for him to obey. Impossible in that the only way he “could” obey was by the grace of God overcoming his sinful state. But God did not give him that grace, instead He did the “opposite” and hardened his heart! That’s what He said, not me?!? I take Him at His word!

But that is no biggie for me here as I see no issue! If God wanted to harden Pharaoh’s heart He had every right to, just as a potter has a right to make what he wants out of clay! Again I see no issue. But many of the respondents in this list above DO see an issue! They see it as hard to digest; is God acting, is man sinning or some vague, nebulous, line in between. Statements like it is a “mystery” we can not understand. Does God ordain / govern sins? etc… God acted in Pharaoh’s heart the way He wanted to in order to fulfill His will. If man does not “like” that… too bad! God can (and does) do what He likes, He is God! My suggestion is to Fear and Tremble! (“work out your salvation with fear and trembling” seems I read that some where). Don’t tell God how He has to act! His ways are not our ways and His Wisdom is far above our own.

Please understand, I am not trying to be divisive or cause dissention. I am lifting up the Holiness of God!

My biggest concern with the church today is we are way too prideful and lukewarm. We make Jesus sick to the point of His puking us out of His mouth (Rev. 3)! He is God and we need to stop playing church! We are like little girls playing with our dollies.

God is Holy! And until we have an Isaiah 6 experience of that Holiness that makes us scream out in agony: “Woe is me for I am undone for I am a man of unclean lips…”, we will never understand just how Awesome our God IS!

He is the creator of heaven and earth! Take a look at the night sky and consider that fact. Then see how we need Jesus more than we could ever imagine! Our sinfulness (lack of holiness) is inversely proportional to the immenseness of that night-time sky!

When Jesus became sin for us, it was not that He took on all the sins of the world (the elected), or even that He became more sinful than Hitler or Nero that is so mind-bending and depraved; but to become UNHOLY! Think… God is UNHOLY? He became that for us! Nothing could be more repulsive to Him! No greater cost could be extracted from Him! Nothing short of His own infinite Power was required for that to occure!

Yet He is our Shepherd, He is our Physician, He is our Friend!

Oh for 10,000 tongues to sing, the praises of my God and King! No greater feat could He perform, then to humble Himself such, for my soul’s wrongs!

The rantings and ravings of one who loves Him yet is in dier need of His return to redeam me from this body of sin!

Les Lanphere July 16, 2010 at 6:54 pm

My issue is with this concept: “Hence God is Just in the act and Pharaoh is no less holy (more sinful) because of the act!”

I wholeheartedly disagree that Pharaoh is no more sinful. He is guilty of the sin that God raise him up for, and in turn, will be judged more harshly for it. Or as it’s been said, “Hell will be hotter” for him because of it.

Actual punishment for actual sins.

Other than that, you last comment was a beautiful display of worship. SDG!

Kent Pletcher July 16, 2010 at 6:57 pm

Les, I apologize for the length of this comment.

@Paul Paradise…A few things about what you’ve recently made comment on…

#1- You’re quoting Romans 7 actually refutes your statement that David could not be regenerate and commit atrocious sins. Christians are capable of committing the very acts of sin that lost people are capable of. The difference, we have godly contrition that leads to repentance and we do not practice such sins. David had godly contrition and repentance towards his sins. A fruit of the regenerate heart. I said earlier that we should discuss depravity because there are some commenting that seem to not understand that outside of the regenerating work of God no one would repent and believe. The new birth was in the OT, as well. As I stated earlier, Jesus scorned Nicodemus for not understanding the new birth in the OT scriptures.

#2 – Just because Christ had not atoned for sins on the cross does not mean that OT saints were not redeemed by the future work of Christ. Remember, the Scripture also says that we were in the Lambs Book of Life from the foundation of the world. We, also, as Christians, are already citizens of the new Jerusalem, however, we’ve not experienced it yet.

#3 – You said, “Man sins because man is sinful. God made man that way.”
No God did not make man that way. You’re actually speaking against scripture. The Fall was a voluntary act on the part of man. God made Man/Adam mutably holy and with plenary power to obey. However, Adam chose to sin, therefore losing his ability to obey, due to the revealed curse God gave for disobedience. But because man sinned does not remove the responsibility to obey. Read my post above by W. Shedd for further details. Also, see the parable of the talents.

#4 – No one is saying, that I’m aware of, that God does not orchestrate all events. He is sovereign over all things and decrees all things that come to past. However, you have to stop where scripture stops. The Bible does not say that God hardens by forcing people to sin. It does say He hardens by removing His restraining hand (Romans 1). In Exodus, the only thing we can say from the text that hardened Pharaoh’s heart to sin further against God was the mercy of God to remove the plagues. In the example that Les gave of Pharaoh’s confession, it was a worldly sorrow that leads to death and even that sorrow only came because of the mercy of God in bringing the plagues. God does not force anyone to sin in His decreeing of all things. We do not need to be forced to sin, it is the only thing we can do outside of grace.

#5 – You say, “sin is a lack of being in a holy state.”
No, being in an unholy state is the result of sin. Adam was in a holy state and his sin cast humanity into an unholy state. Sin is the act of disobedience to God’s command.

#6 – You’re exegesis of 2 Corinthians 5:21 is way off. Jesus did not become unholy. You should study imputation. Jesus was made a sin offering and more…His bride’s sin was imputed to Him “as if” He had committed them Himself. His perfect righteousness is imputed to us “as if” we obtained it ourself. Remember, Jesus was the spotless lamb and never lost that state of holiness. Surely, you’re not suggesting that we are “in and of ourselves” righteous now? If not, it is because of imputation, which worked both ways.

#7 – Finally, you said, “It is God making it impossible for Pharaoh to obey God as that is only possible by God’s imparted Holiness via His Spirit residing on Pharaoh. Hence God is Just in the act and Pharaoh is no less holy (more sinful) because of the act!”
God does not make it impossible for us to obey Him. Again, you’re philosophical conclusions go against scripture because that would be worst than tempting someone to sin, which the Bible screams is blasphemy. Also, Pharaoh’s act of sinning, you’re blaming on imparted holiness and the Holy Spirit residing on Pharaoh?! May it never be! Pharaoh’s sinful actions are wholly based on his sinful heart and not God forcing him to sin or not giving him any other option. And Pharaoh’s sinful actions do make him more sinful. Every sin committed makes one more sinful.

Paul Paradise July 16, 2010 at 7:05 pm

Ah, Les, I too just found this:

Romans 9:10-13
And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Notice that God loved Jacob and hated Esau before they were even born, before they had “done any good or evil that the purpose of God according to election might stand”. God is Holy here as He is at all times! He made a decision that “appears” to be unfair to us. But notice His justification (like He need to give us one!): “the purpose of God according to election might stand’! He does what He wants in accordance with His own FREE-WILL! To accomplish His purpose. And He chooses to do that by His will of a process we call “electing”! He can do that Righteously because, while we may not have a free will, He sure does!

It can be argued (and often has by prideful men) that it is because He foreknew of their sins and made His decision on that basis. Hogwash! He said why He maid the decision, Election, nothing more, nothing less! How can I be so sure? Well as I said, He told me. But also, without God, there is no difference between Jacob and Esau. Jacob could not say anything differently then, ‘but for the grace of God, go I”! just as we must say the same looking at Hitler!

So God is Holy and all His acts are Holy and Just, even the ones “we” think are unholy! He is God and is free to do what He wants with His creatures and can never be called unholy for doing so. Besides, He makes the standards not us!

Paul Paradise July 16, 2010 at 7:42 pm

@Kent ok I did say, I could not believe that David was regenerated. That does not mean that I am not wrong? You may be right about points 1 & 2. Time will tell.

What I do like is now I get to do some homework on that subject. It is my understanding that we are elected before the foundation of the earth, but as for when that election is appropriated, (regeneration) I need to learn more of what God says on the subject.

On #3 your misreading my meaning. Yes we are innocent of sins consequences until we sin. But Adam was already created, flawed in that He could not obey the commandment to leave the tree alone.

1 John 2:15-16 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the “lust of the flesh”, and the “lust of the eyes”, and the “pride of life”, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Now look at Eve’s sin as described in Genesis 3:6. “And when the woman saw that the tree was “good for food”, and that it was “pleasant to the eyes”, and a tree to be “desired to make one wise”, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Adam and Eve were perfect (holy) in your response but notice the reasons for the fall vs. John’s definition of sin:

1. lust of the flesh (sin) – good for food
2. lust of the eyes (sin) – pleasant to the eyes
3. pride of life (sin – desired to make one wise
Interesting that Adam & Eve had this before they sinned? Notice John said if they loved these things, the love of the Father was not in them. So was it sinful for them to love themselves and not the God that created them? To me that is unholiness and therefor sin!

#4 Stop where the bible stops? Sorry, but God’s Word does not have cliffs we can fall off… no ends just lack of wisdom from God on our part. Of course I am referring to things of God as revealed in His word. Not things of the world… many dead-ends there.

Ok I was wrong to have used the word “forced” (though that is how I see it) maybe “strongly influenced is more politically correct to you? Point is, if God did not “encourage” Pharaoh to obey, but rather hardened his heart, then God acted to hinder obedience. He did not make Pharaoh sin, but made it difficult for him to obey. Close 2nd in my book. Ah, but you say God would never do that! Well look at what God does during the tribulation period:

2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
“And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” Pretty strong indicator that God can make folks believe lies when He wants too!

#6 Jesus became sin. Yes He took our sins in trade for His Righteousness. But in the process, He spent 3 hours on the cross totally separated from the Father… to the point He cried, “My God, My God why have you forsaken Me?” At that point in time, He bore our sins, He was unholy! And God hid His eyes from Him! God can not look on sin because God is Holy and sin is unholy!

Les Lanphere July 16, 2010 at 8:04 pm

Awesome to see humility and a teachable spirit.

Paul Paradise July 16, 2010 at 8:31 pm

haha Thanks Les! But it is only cause I am in a good mood today, you see it’s my birthday. =)

Seriously, I am sorry for the length of my responses. I love God and love to discuss His Word and His ways…. as iron sharpens iron!

Les Lanphere July 16, 2010 at 8:38 pm

lol. No need to apologize or worry about offending anyone, here. We’re all after the same thing: seeking the heart of God and knowing Him more. And honest conversation an absolute necessity.

Happy Birthday, Paul!

Kent Pletcher July 16, 2010 at 9:08 pm

Yeah, Happy Birthday, Paul!

Look forward to engaging again. Right now, some family time!

God bless!

Jeffi July 17, 2010 at 3:56 am

Les, I understand where you’re coming from and I’m sure what I’m saying can be easily misunderstood, so let me address your concerns as clearly as I can.

I completely agree with 1 & 3. Number 2 i disagree with. It’s difficult to understand, but not a mystery. We find this concept being explained to us from Genesis to Revelations. We only need to read.

You say that I’ve gone further than Scripture allows, and then made mention of a handful of passages that I should “stick to”. If we’re left basing the entire discussion on the few passages mentioned with their very brief explanations, then yes, I’ve gone beyond them…and so should you! Let me assure you, brother, there is much more to learn in the remaining passages! Full counsel!
It also begs the question, “Why the post?” If the answer can only be summerizes in the previously mentioned passages and it will always be a “mystery”, then we’re wasting our time discussing it.

Anyway, about your comment… “You see, if you say God has immunity to what would normally be sinful to us, simply because He’s God and He’s doing it to His own creation, you’re now saying God can lie, commit injustice, and do any number of ‘wicked’ things, and remain innocent.”…

I’ll give you a few examples of where we see God’s immunity in what is sin for us:
God can kill, we cannot. God can do what’s best for Himself, we cannot. God can curse, we cannot. God can use evil for good, we cannot. God can be jealous, we cannot. God can take vengence, we cannot….He remains holy and blameless in each of these though they be sinful to our creation. And yes, Les, God can cause his creation to fall (my term-”tripping”) through means of creation, allowance, circumstances, direct hardening, turning over, sending strong delusion,etc…. And still His character has not changed. We are dust. He is Creator. We have NO rights, He has EVERY right. Get it?

You stated correctly:
“But this is the definition of Holiness: He is unique, set apart, and without imperfection. He is also the perfect judge of sin. He is unable to do anything contrary, or hypocritical to His holy nature.” …and yet you seem to have greatly limited what God CAN do in His holy nature, namely the list above.

Like I said, difficult, but clear.

On the side: I may disagree with you, but I so appreciate you holding me accountable!
I’ll also share some passages once I get on my computer. It takes waaay too long on my iPod.

Jeffi July 17, 2010 at 4:01 am

Oh, and Happy Belated Paul! Hope you had a blessed day

Les Lanphere July 17, 2010 at 9:00 am

@Jeffi

This is why i went on to mention God’s killing in the name of judgement. THAT is not sinful, but the prerogative of a holy judge. And I would argue the entire list of things you mentioned are not sinful to God, not because He’s God and can do what He wants, but His actions are based IN his holiness.

God MUST kill the guilty because He’s holy. God MUST glorify Himself, because He’s holy.
God MUST curse in judgement, because He’s holy.
God MUST use our evil for good, because He’s holy.
God MUST be jealous for His people, because He’s holy.

These things are not sinful to God, precisely because of God’s role of judge and King. What would normally be murder for me is an approved requirement for a prison executioner. You see what I’m saying?

Let’s take it to Christ. Could Jesus lie? Could He lust? Could He murder, and still be innocent? If what you’re saying is true, then He could do all those things, because He’s God and He’s dealing with what’s His.

No, Jesus had to be sinless, and those things would be contrary to the very nature of God.

But Jesus will return on a white horse and slaughter the unbelievers… not because He’s has diplomatic immunity, but because He is the sovereign King and judge of the quick and the dead.

Steve Camp July 17, 2010 at 9:16 am

To All:

I’ve been out of this thread for the past day due to church responsibilities and family being in town. But it’s time to interact here this morning and give some strong encouragement and guidelines on this subject.

1. While anyone is free here to interact on any subject presented, it does not mean that egalitarianism is in play. When it comes to speaking on the character of God and His nature – be careful and guard your words carefully.

2. On this subject: God is sovereign and has ordained all things according to the counsel of His will, for His purpose and pleasure, and for His glory.

God cannot be tempted or be the predetermined first cause of sin in others. It is against His nature. To attribute sin to God is to violate Scripture (James 1:13-15) and blaspheme His name.

The Lord Jesus Christ was fully man:(Heb 4:15) and fully God (Heb 7:26). He was “holy, innocent, unstained, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens.” At no point did He ever become unholy – that is heresy. Even on the cross, He “became sin for us” by imputation only (2 Cor 5:21), not in nature or essence. He was treated on the cross as if He committed the sins of the elect, but remained absolutely holy in every way consistent with His deity.

On this video, Piper misspoke and caused some confusion. That can happen with the best of us. But nonetheless he misspoke on a couple of key issues:

1. How God interacts with the objects of His creation (wind, trees, hurricanes, stars, dust particles) is quite different in how He interacts with men and women. The two are not a one to one corollary. To equate the movement of every dust particle moving through the air with the committing of every one of our besetting sins was a major tripping. (consider Job 38-40:2; Col. 1:15-19; Heb. 1:1-3; and Rom. 1:18-23).

2. To project the idea that the cross was the greatest sin or wickedness or evil ever propagated in all of history or ever will be is completely untrue and most assuredly unbiblical. The cross was the perfect righteousness of God put on display as a propitiatory, substitutional, vicarious sacrifice for the sins of the elect (Rom 3:21-26). It was the most holiest moment ever demonstrated on earth by our Lord – not the most sinful! Piper even went as far as to equate the actions of God in Is. 53:10 with those in Acts 4:27-28 as being the greatest sin ever taking place. Again, not only a major theological misstep, but a blasphemous assertion. (For the record I like and appreciate John very much; but I am certain he would change his answer here if he could.)

3. He attributed this to Satan by saying, “and what the Devil did in unleashing all of that was committing suicide.” What? The cross was not some sort of theological dualism (the powers of darkness and the powers of light battling it out). On the contrary, the cross was the death blow to Satan by crushing the Serpents head (Heb 2:14-16). Do not think for a moment that Satan was the active agent of suffering for Jesus on Calvary…

4. Lastly, all of us are completely culpable and responsible for every one of our sins. We are not sinners because we commit acts of sins. We are sinners by nature, because we have been conceived in sin (Ps. 51:5). Adam was our federal head in the Fall; Christ, the last Adam, was our federal head on the cross and is so in redemption (Rom 5:12-17).

Must go for now… Carry on.
Pastor Steve Camp
The Cross Church

Steve Camp July 17, 2010 at 9:17 am

Les:

Thank you for your comment to Jeffi. Excellent my brother!

Kent Pletcher July 17, 2010 at 10:26 am

@Jeffi…
The Hebrew word in the OT and in the commandment is actually the Hebrew word for murder. Meaning thou shall not take someone’s life unlawfully. Soon after God gives commands of when it is lawful to take another’s life…many of them. So, it is not unlawful to kill lawfully or else we could have no police or soldiers. In regards to God, when is it unlawful for Him, the Creator to take a life? Never! For the Scripture says that He has decreed the day of our death.

@Steve…this being your blog and church site, I humbly submit this…
I take Piper, when speaking of the cross being the most sinful act of sin ever … to restricting those thoughts to the active murder of Jesus by the people who were involved in this conspiracy. I would never think that Piper would say that God’s part of predetermining it as sinful or that the act of redemption by Jesus Christ as sinful. I believe Piper would whole-heartedly agree with you that God’s part was a most glorious event and a perfect display of the holiness of God.

So, if Piper is restricting the sinful act to the people that were actively and passively involved in the murder of Jesus Christ than I wonder what could be more sinful than for mankind to take the spotless Lamb of God, the God-Man, the Holy One of Israel, the Messiah, the One who was the perfect, express image of God and rather than worship Him they killed Him in the style of the most heinous criminal. What could be more sinful than the murder of God incarnate?

Jeffi July 17, 2010 at 12:59 pm

Les, I agree with you completely. You’re simply restating the point I was making “These things are not sinful to God, precisely because of God’s role of judge and King.” I guess I’m missing the disagreement.
Are you assuming that I believe differently or is the issue simply with the word “tripped”? So that I’m not misunderstood, let me day it again:

I have never and will never attribute sinfulness to God.

We are discussing whether or not God PREDETERMINES every detail. I agree with Spurgeon and Piper. Yes He does. And we can see the means by which He does this in scripture.

We agree that God can do things we can’t, because He us holy. And then you go on to explain WHY. I can listen & agree though I believe your explanation is incomplete.
We agree that God sovereignly ordains sinful actions. I go on to explain HOW using biblical references but somehow that Is offensive and I’m encouraged to rest on limited passages. So my questions to you are these:

Can God harden hearts directly?
Can God CAUSE His creation to stumble in any way?…and
Does God limit our level/action of sin?

Mike…scripture buddy! I’m open to the scriptures that support your claim of OT regeneration. Send them my way

Kent, first I’ll address this:
“You cannot start philosophizing outside of Scripture and start attributing your conclusions to God.”
Is it ouside of scripture to say that God has a direct influence upon the lost and the hearts of men? Is He able to change our desires or not?
Example: Sending a strong delusion so that they will believe the lie or turning them over to a debased mind is pretty direct. And an aggresive one as well. How is this any different than my summary of tripping/falling? Not philosophy, brother.

Next, your last post is talking about murder under the law. I’m talking about killing in light of “turn the other cheek”. It is NOT acceptable for a Christian to take anyone’s life.

Paul, you’re like the second person I’ve met that caught the parallel of Eve’s lusts/desired and the lusts/desires in 1Jn. And you have a very clear understanding of it’s implications. Thanking God for that!
Take a look at my blog. I was wanting to post it here.

If anyone is interested: check this out.
http://selah4him.wordpress.com/2010/04/08/just-like-adam-and-eve/

Les Lanphere July 17, 2010 at 1:27 pm

@Jeffi,

As for my part of your comment.

I’m trying to make a very subtle, but very important distinction.

You seem to be saying that God can do things that, if we did them, would be sinful. I’m saying that is wrong. Sin is sin, and God can not disregard His holy law and continue to be holy.

I’m saying God can not murder. He can not covet. He can not do what He had deemed to be evil.

And in the same way He can not force a man’s hand to plunge a knife into an innocent chest, or cause a man to blaspheme His holy name. This would make God a worker of sin.

Les Lanphere July 17, 2010 at 1:54 pm

Here’s another insight from Piper, clarifying his view a little more.

I’m not even sure who would agree and disagree with this, anymore. But it makes a lot of sense to me.

steve camp July 17, 2010 at 2:37 pm

Kent:

You said, “What could be more sinful than the murder of God incarnate?”

Jesus was crucified, but He was no victim. He laid down His life as a ransom for many. No one took it from Him. He had the authority to lay it done and the authority to take it up again. He was not taken against His will; He was not a rose trampled on the ground. Though He died on a Roman cross, Christ died for God. (Heb 2:9-18; Rom 3:21-31)

Modern evangelicalism seems to want to rewrite the glory of the biblical account. There is not one Scripture verse that views the cross specifically as the most wicked, evil, sinful thing in all of human history. God does not define the atonement in that way either prophetically in the OT or in fulfillment in the NT.

John 10:17-18 “17 For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. 18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.”

steve camp July 17, 2010 at 2:49 pm

Les:

Much better from Piper. Clearer; and in a good way on some things, contradictory to the previous video.

Thank you brother.

steve camp July 17, 2010 at 3:15 pm

Kent:

You said, “I believe Piper would whole-heartedly agree with you that God’s part was a most glorious event and a perfect display of the holiness of God.”

I do too. I believe he would like to rerecord this response if given the opportunity. I know that He believes the orthodox view as you stated in the quote above. The problem is – he didn’t say it here BUT did mention several times the evil wicked sinful view of Jesus on the cross and did at the end of the video connect most disturbingly to Is 53:10.

The reason I mention it here, is that I have heard from several pastors around the county whom after seeing this video were equally disturbed. I also mention it because I know that as our church site grows and more readership is developed here, I don’t want anyone to think that what was represented in this video is within itself the orthodox biblical view.

The best of men are men at best. Whether it be me, you or Piper – we all most appeal to Scripture alone as our final authority.

I appreciate your comments here greatly. You have done well in defending the Scriptures to some others here who are struggling with their views about God. Thank you.

Kent Pletcher July 17, 2010 at 4:12 pm

@Jeffi…
Les is doing a great job at making the point I was trying to make earlier…so I’ll point you to what he previously said and add this…

Regarding going outside of scripture, people should not and you have when it in turn goes against Scripture. Philosophizing outside of scripture and having conclusions that go against scripture is heresy. God has revealed Himself in Scripture, not in delusional thoughts about Him.

You said, “Is it ouside of scripture to say that God has a direct influence upon the lost and the hearts of men? Is He able to change our desires or not?” I say, “No!”

However, it is how you and Paul Paradise seek to define the delusion that bothers me. You both have assigned (possibly not meaning to) God blame in man sinning. You’ve also both attributed sinfulness in Adam’s creation, which is blasphemy. Everything God created was “good,” we know God’s definition of good.

Adam sinning was what brought sin into the world. That’s why it is known as original sin. Adam was created holy, although, mutably holy. However, he was created holy and upright with no sin in him. Sin entered in when they rebelled against God in their heart. In other words, sin preceded the taking of the fruit. Because they first sinned in their heart. This is what Jesus made everyone aware of. Adultery is first internal, then external, etc. You coming to the conclusion that Adam was created with sin because he sinned is exactly what I’m talking about when I say going outside of scripture. Deuteronomy 29:29 says, “the secret things are for the Lord but those things revealed are for His people.” So there are obviously things, if we try, we will state wrongly and that is dangerous.

As Steve said earlier, we best be very careful when speaking to the character and nature of God. And discussing how He interacts with mankind points to His character. Advice, stay within the realm of what God says explicitly.

You said, “Example: Sending a strong delusion so that they will believe the lie or turning them over to a debased mind is pretty direct. And an aggresive one as well. How is this any different than my summary of tripping/falling? Not philosophy, brother.”

I’m not denying God sends strong delusion only cautioning you in how far you go in defining the delusion. You must stop where Scripture stops. The difference is me skinning my knee from falling would be the secondary cause of you tripping me. You purposefully tripping me would be the first cause. First cause always carries the most responsibility. This is replete in the Bible and laws of our land. Applying first cause of sin to God is blasphemy against God and Scripture and is outside the entire history of orthodox Christianity.

My pastor says rightly, “if you lose tension in the doctrine of God’s sovereignty and man’s responsibility than you’ve erred in one direction.”

Also, you need to relook at the point of turning the other cheek. It does not mean that a Christian cannot “lawfully” take another’s life. It means to not take vengeance into your own hands. It does not mean that you can not “legally” defend your home from intruders. It does not mean a Christian cannot be a police officer or soldier, whom has the duty of taking a life, if necessary. Are you telling me that any soldier who ever took a life as a Christian was not a Christian or was sinning in doing so? Are you saying that a Christian should watch someone murder and rape his wife and children? I hope not!

@Steve…
Thank you brother. I’m praying for you and your church.

Also, I did not mean to say anything other than clarify what I believe Piper meant. I’ve heard him talk about this subject a lot and even heard sermons by him on it. As i know you are as well.

However, I agree with Piper on the point that the crucifixion of Jesus Christ was the most wicked sin ever committed by men.

Here is Scripture that I believe backs up my point…
Acts 2:23 “this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.”

Sin is wicked. Lawless killing is wicked. Lawlessly and wickedly killing the Son of glory, I cannot think of anything more wicked.

Everything else, such as God’ part in redemption being glorious and holy, Jesus laying down his life voluntarily, etc… I agree with you wholeheartedly!

However, I do not believe those who crucified Jesus are innocent. I believe their part was heinous.

Paul Paradise July 17, 2010 at 4:22 pm

Steve:

May I first say how good I think it is that you and your church have created this website as a way to interact with the social media; thereby obtaining new doors for God’s Word to be shared with a lost and dying world.

Next, your warning about being on guard as to what we profess about God’s character has not fallen on deaf ears here. As I referenced previously, “let God be TRUE and every man a liar.”. While I understand that Jesus IS, always will be and always was 100% holy as the scripture defines holiness. His ‘condition’ on the cross was of One who was totally unholy in that He was standing in our place (the unholy ones). He “became sin” for us that we could become “His Righteousness”. While from God’s perspective, He was totally holy, in His passion and suffering, He was separated from the Father! Why, because He was bearing our sins. And God can not look upon sin. His separation is the same “kind of” separation an unholy one has with God. So from my perspective, Jesus was unholy… separated from His father because of my sins. At that time, He cried out “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?” The answer can be found in Isaiah 59:1-3:

“Behold, the LORD’s hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear: But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear. For your hands are defiled with blood, and your fingers with iniquity; your lips have spoken lies, your tongue hath muttered perverseness.”

Now we know Jesus never did ANY of these sins mentioned in the text, but He had taken them on Himself — our sins. And as a result was in this condition:

1. “hid his (God’s) face from you (Jesus), that he (God) will not hear”
2. “your (Jesus’) hands are defiled with blood”
3. “your (Jesus’) fingers with iniquity”
4. “your (Jesus’) lips have spoken lies”
5. “your (Jesus’) tongue hath muttered perverseness”

Side note: I think it fitting that there are five conditions mentioned as five is the number of grace in Bible numerics!

Now Jesus NEVER DID any of those things, but we had and He was our sacrificial lamb holding our sins. He was indwelt with them on the cross.

His very cry, “My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me” is prove of that. God had not forsaken Him. The Father would never forsaken the Son. Granted He turned His back on Him for this period of time, but He already ordained Jesus’ deliverance from it all so no forsakenness here. But Jesus was bearing our iniquities.

So while He was 100% Holy, Pure, Just and True! He was also, sin-laden, cursed, separated and guilty before Almighty God! But me being human and not having the wisdom of God know of no other way to express that condition, with all the weight of cost to Jesus, all the pain and anguish He endured for me, all the guilty and shame He bore, but the word unholy. I don’t know, maybe unrighteous is more to my point?

Holiness can mean so may different things in scripture. Holiness is imparted to us in the form of justification, sanctification and ultimatly, glorification. It means to be set aside for a particular purpose for God (in that case Jesus always was holy for sure!), it can also mean without sin as in Isaiah 6 where Isaiah, when confronted with God’s Holiness was aware of his own unholiness and that in the form of his sinfulness. In that definition, Jesus not only was bearing our sin, but became sin! From the Isaiah account, that could be called unholiness?!? That’s the definition I was referring to in my statements.

Ultimately, my point is that we can never know the depth Jesus fell to in dealing with the cost of our salvation; the infinite shame and suffering:

Hebrews 12:2-3
“Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.”

Jeffi:
I will read through your blog and respond to you directly. I am following you on Twitter and will respond there.

Jeffi July 18, 2010 at 1:30 am

Les, thank you for making that distinction. It is subtle and I can see how you may have misunderstood some of the things I’ve stated. I’ll try to be more careful in how I come accross.

To clarify… Many things are not sinful in & of themselves, but are sinful to us because we are unholy & corrupt. Whereas, the same things can be pure and innocent to our Holy, incorruptible God. What is “murder” & “coveting” for us is “just retribution” & “holy desire” to God. Same actions, different definitions. In any case, sin is sin when produced by a sinner. All God does is done with holy perfection. Agreed?

Otherwise, my examples are based on the concepts I explained earlier. Mainly, God’s ability to change a man’s desires and letting man do the rest. Quite different from “Les, thank you for making that distinction. It is subtle and I can see how you may have misunderstood some of the things I’ve stated. I’ll try to be more careful in how I come accross.

To clarify… Many things are not sinful in & of themselves, but are sinful to us because we are unholy & corrupt. Whereas, the same things can be pure and innocent to our Holy, incorruptible God. What is “murder” & “coveting” for us is “just retribution” & “holy desire” to God. Same actions, different definitions. In any case, sin is sin when produced by a sinner. All God does is done with holy perfection. Agreed?

Otherwise, my examples are based on the concepts I explained earlier. Mainly, God’s ability to change a man’s desires and letting man do the rest. I’m not even sure if you agree with that, but it’s quite different from “forcing” sin upon him.

Anyway, it seems this discussion has shifted from God’s intent, to His means, and then His ability. I’m hoping we can come to some agreement on His ability and work our way back

I would also like to hear your take on the questions I asked you!

Always good talking with ya, brother!

Jeffi July 18, 2010 at 2:04 am

Kent,
Please consider what I say:
I have no problem with your boldness even if you seem to lack gentleness.
I have no problem with you misunderstand me or speaking out of emotion.
I have no problem with you holding me accountable to the Word & even lovingly warning me.

However, before you falsely accuse someone of heresy, delusion, and blasphemy, you might want to make sure you’ve taken the time to hear what they are saying and at least doublecheck your assumptions.

I’m not trying to ignore your concerns or hurt your feelings, but I will continue by addressing Les’ concerns simply because he is clearly interested in having us come to the unity of the faith & knowledge of the Son of God. He has shown great gentleness and grace in the midst of debate and doesn’t hesitate to ask questions. We could all use some practice in these areas- myself included!
(And trust me, I am very tempted to defend myself on each of these points- not very edifying)

Anyway, a gentle warning…. if your character becomes questionable over a debated subject, and especially over something that is not foundational, then you may want to take a step back and re-focus. I say this with great love, brother.
Sola Gratia!

Jeffi July 18, 2010 at 2:16 am

LOL! Wow, my iPods doing something crazy above. Sorry bout that Les. he he. Super funny  (quit making me repeat myself!)

Kent Pletcher July 18, 2010 at 2:08 pm

@Jeffi…
If I came off as lacking gentleness, I apologize.

I did write with a desire for unity, however, I am a very passionate person and hit “submit” before toning it down.

One danger of writing is that the reader can “read in” emotion and motive.You cannot possibly know my motive, nor can I know yours.

However, I did want to stress to you that heresy is real and that you can find yourself in it if not careful to weigh your conclusions against Scripture.

To all, I apologize if I came across as unloving or lacking gentleness. I did not intend this at all. But I must say that I take very serious the character of God.

And I would rather be called unloving and offensive than to stay quiet and not defend the character of God.

Remember, every idle word will be judged and there are some who are reading that I dare not cause to stumble.

Lord be merciful in our discussion!

Les Lanphere July 18, 2010 at 3:16 pm

Man. I’m really happy with the way this whole discussion turned out. I feel like overall we’ve come to very similar conclusions based on Biblical revelation. And I’ve certainly learned how important our phrasing of things really. Especially when we’re handling a topic like the very character of God.

I can see how irreverent and loose lipped I’ve often been.

–

Lord, give us a bigger view of your holy name. Show us Your glory, so we will be careful to speak with reverence and utter truth about You.

Jeffi July 18, 2010 at 4:11 pm

Kent, you’ve shown great character throughout this entire discussion, which is why I wanted to note what seemed to be a sudden change. I may have taken your passion for anger and I apologize as well. I have a tendency to frustrate people and I would hate to cause you to stumble in any way brother.

I so appreciate your passion and stand for Truth & the character of God. I hold that in very high regards. We should all be so uncompromising even if it makes us appear harsh. So thanks for acknowledging my concern and showing great humility. Always beautiful! And I’m definitely more comfortable continuing this discussion with you!

So let me say this:
I do NOT attribute sin to God in any way. Man is entirely accountable for sin. God does not tempt or entice anyone to sin. In fact, I would attribute that to both “the tempter” and our evil desires.
However, I do believe that God has sovereignly ordained sin for His own glory:
He has “subjected the creation..” (Rom Subjected, but not forced!
I believe He continually directs all men into His sovereignly ordained will by means of:
1. Orchestrating circumstances.
2. Restraining and allowing satanic forces to accomplish His will.
3. Direct influence upon the heart (or person) by applying grace or withholding it – and thereby changing the desires of the man.

This is as far scripture let’s us go with regard to God’s influence. And I believe He goes no further because at this point, sin has not yet become a factor. Only the “conditions” and desires have changed.
When man is left to himself in these adjusted conditions and desires, James 1:14-15 comes into play…

“14 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. 15 Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.”
Man is quilty. No argument there. The direct cause of sin is man’s desire. But our desires can be influenced precisely, which will inevitable lead to precise sins. Desire of revenge can lead to murder, desire to be liked can lead to flattery, etc.

I also do NOT believe Adam & Eve were created sinful. I believe God perfectly created them with what I would call “weaknesses” or “imperfections”. And that was good!

You said, “Adam was created holy, although, mutably holy. However, he was created holy and upright with no sin in him. Sin entered in when they rebelled against God in their heart. In other words, sin preceded the taking of the fruit. Because they first sinned in their heart.”
This begs the question: If they were holy how could they have sinned in their heart or otherwise? Does a holy creature sin?
The bible says they were “good” but makes no reference to them being holy. THIS is going further than what scripture allows, is it not?

Now I believe they were innocent because of ignorance, not knowing good or evil or feeling shame (lacking a conscience). Innocent of sin, but still purposely flawed.

Anyway, long post. Sorry. I pray this helps clear up some of the misunderstanding!

Love you brother!

Jeffi July 18, 2010 at 4:15 pm

Amen Les! Me too!

God has been good to show us this! PTL!

Paul Paradise July 18, 2010 at 6:20 pm

Hi Jeffi:

You stated:

I believe He continually directs all men into His sovereignty ordained will by means of:

1. Orchestrating circumstances.
2. Restraining and allowing satanic forces to accomplish His will.
3. Direct influence upon the heart (or person) by applying grace or withholding it – and thereby changing the desires of the man.

I would think the others believe similarly based on my reading. So this is addressed to all not just you.

I would agree with 1,2 & 3 but I have issues with the ‘instrument’ chosen to perform #3: “by applying grace or withholding it – and thereby changing the desires of the man”.

Do you have any scriptural evidence that the means is by turning grace on & off like a faucet?

I guess my thoughts are related to the ministry of the Holy Spirit as the means to “convict” or “reprove” the world “of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment” John 16:8.

Therefore I see the instrument to be God’s Holy Spirit and not grace per-say. So when God says in His word that He hardened Pharaoh’s heart, I am stuck in the position of believing that:

1. God can not lie
2. “God said it, that settles it”

I don’t believe the “churchy” version: “God said it, I believe it, that settles it” as it matters not what we believe or don’t believe, again: let God be TRUE and every man a liar!”.

If anyone can show me, from scripture, that it was God’s grace and not God Himself that performed this act, I will eat my words in shame in the corner. Please, prove me wrong, if in deed I am wrong? As I want to know the truth here.

But if God DID do it via His Holy Spirit not residing on Pharaoh thereby making it impossible for him to obey, then why the steadfast rejection of truth? Is it pride that makes us not want to grant God FULL Sovereignty? I hope not cause such pride is what leads poor souls to believe works is part of regeneration faith; and thereby their blind journey into hell!

Actually, whether by “grace” (in a nebulous, undefinable sense) or by His Spirit, the effect is the same. God gives grace (or power to obey be His Spirit) or God removes / limits grace (Does not give power to obey by His Spirit) the results are the same and Pharaoh did not obey.

Why is this so hard to digest? Does not the scripture teach we are “DEAD” in trespasses and sins? Well my friends, DEAD men can not act! They can not obey! Only the supernatural empowering of God’s Holy Spirit can give us the ability to obey! To resist temptation, to resist the lust of the eye, the lust of the flesh and the pride of life!

Lastly, as to our spirits in this discussion. I know in my heart of hearts that only the Humility of Jesus in us matters most. Not an unyielding borderline-offensive spirit.

Also, we do not need to defend God in any way shape or form; He is God and can defend Himself! And He warns us: “it is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of an angry God”! I do not take that lightly!

But I AM bothered when our attitude and spirit is one of anything other than the Love of Jesus shed through our heart! God forbid we should do or say anything that is not out of love 1st, and foremost (I Corth. 13).

Steve Camp July 18, 2010 at 7:33 pm

To Jeffi and Paul:

The key here gentlemen is to define what you believe biblically and not from sentimentality or philosophy. Theology Proper is truth about God – His nature, character, attributes. This takes careful study in God’s Word as I know you would agree.

So a few thoughts:

1. Jesus Christ on the cross was never unholy. He was always holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners… (Heb. 7:26). He bore our sin only by imputation. He remained absolutely holy though the sins of all the elect were imputed to Him (2 Cor. 5:21).

2. The unity of the God-head was never broken on the cross. Our Lord Jesus remained in perfect relationship with the Father as our divine predestined Substitute and vicarious penal propitiatory sacrifice (Heb 2:9-18).

3. On the cross Jesus was forsaken, but not through God turning His back on Him because He could not look upon sin. This, though a common explanation, is unbiblical and sentimental at its core. God sees the evil and the good every day (Prov. 15:3); our iniquity is ever before His eyes (Jer. 16:17); and all things are laid bare before Him to whom we must all give account (Heb. 4:12-16). He is omniscient.

So God could and did see all the sin, guilt, and shame imputed to Jesus on the cross on behalf of all those for whom He came to die (John 17:1-14).

Habakkuk 1:13 says this, “Your eyes are too pure to approve evil, and You can not look on wickedness with favor. Why do You look with favor on those who deal treacherously?
Why are You silent when the wicked swallow up
those more righteous than they?”

Clearly the meaning here is that God cannot look on sin with favor – not that He cannot see it.

So on the cross, Jesus was forsaken as the sin-bearer – but it wasn’t through God turning His back on Him. The Father was propitiated by the Son. Jesus on the cross faced the Father and the Father faced the Son (pros ton theon – Heb. 2:17) and took all the wrath for all the elect that we deserve in an eternal hell forever. He drank the cup to the very dregs that He wrestled with in the Garden.

He satisfied God so thoroughly, that now we by grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ have peace with God forever (Rom. 5:1).

I am grateful for you guys in this discussion.

Paul Paradise July 18, 2010 at 8:03 pm

Thanks Steve,

… for your thorough and well documented response. I have “always heard” that God turned His back on His Son for that reason (sin). I will most definitely look at each and everyone of these verses. Please agree with me in prayer that God will help reveal His truth in accordance to His most Holy Will and Purpose.

Again, thank you for taking the time to research these verse refrences. I know you have a lot of responsibilities and it means much to me that you would take time out to identify and list them.

Your explanation makes allot of sense and I am sure God’s wisdom is the goal for us all.

God bless you my brother in all that you do for His kingdom!

Sincerely,
Paul

PS. Thank you for demonstrating the profoundly simple, yet profoundly deep words of a great man of God I once heard say, “Don’t tell them Jesus loves them till your ready to love them too…”

Jeffi July 19, 2010 at 6:50 pm

Hey Paul, first of all, great question about grace! I don’t know of any passages that relate directly, but of few come to mind that I believe have some inferences. I’m sure there’s more but I haven’t taken the time to study it completely.

Anyway check out John 3:21, John 6:45, & 2Thess 2:7. They concern both restraint and grace given before salvation. I’m not sure if grace is the appropriate word, but I don’t know what other word could be used.

I have always seen grace as a disposition of God rather than a nebulous entity. God graciously interacting with us by displaying His power in different ways. For instance, letting us breathe, keeping us from certain evils, changing circustances, etc.
So no, I don’t believe it’s the “faucet” effect
Simply a display of God’s gracious disposition vs His vengeful disposition, for example.

I believe, as well, that He often displays Himself through the power of the Holy Spirit. But as for the convictions…I believe He only accomplishes that in the elect. Laying the Heb 6 foundation, so to speak.

I also believe that both Christ and the Father are more than able to interact with us directly, but I’m not sure if there is some sort of function they each have that decides Who, what, when, & where.

Hope that all makes sense. Trying to be careful with my words

Paul Paradise July 19, 2010 at 8:04 pm

Hey Jeffi, Thanks for the feedback. Ya I too love those verses. I use 2 Thes. 2:4-7 all the time as it deals with the restraining power of the Holy Spirit in regards to the revelation of the Antichrist. And, as you know from my blog, Bible prophecy is my ministry.

I understand that God restrains and encourages actions in the world, with the world system, Satan and demons, governments, mankind collectively and individually. Actually, that vs ref is more on my side as it talks about restraining done by God’s Spirit!

Gare to me means unmerited favor. And, in relation to salvation, is irresistible. Grace is God’s Goodness being bestowed on a vessel regardless of their worth. Matchless, Wonderful Grace of the Savior will always be my song and defense!

My terminology of giving / withdrawing of grace in a “nebulous, undefinable sense” like turning on or off a faucet is where I take issue. Grace is much more than that! It is an Expression of God’s heart & will in action on the object in an intimate and personal way. Grace to me is not like something from a si-fi move; “the force be with you”. God forbid, it is Goodness in Action. I am sure that is what is meant in the usage by others here, but it seems so ‘clinical’ when use flippantly as a ‘this is what it is and that’s all it is’ when looking at God’s dealing with pharaoh.

Why do I keep coming back to pharaoh? Because God “raised him up…” to make His Power known to all generations. It is the heart of the doctrine for God’s dealings with sinful man in relationship to the God’s will vs. man’s will dilema. Actually there is NO dilemma as God is Sovereign!

But thank you Jeffi because you gave me the verse I needed to prove that it is God’s Spirit and not circumstance that God uses to “harden hearts” as well as “soften hearts”: irresistible grace? Yes, but as a tool in the hands of God’s Spirit!

Jeffi July 19, 2010 at 11:23 pm

Steve, I really appreciated your last post. I’ve honestly never heard it put that way before. And although I never mentioned Christ becoming unholy or a separation in the Godhead, I can honestly say that I’ve assumed something similar. (Wasn’t sure if you were talking to me as you as were addressing “gentlemen” )

I’m still wrestling with some of the points you addressed and would like your take on them.

What is the meaning of Christ being made “lower than the angels”? If there was no form of separation to begin with then it would seem as though God became lower than His creatures. But then again I am torn on the meaning of “lower”.

What is meant when Jesus says, “And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.”?

And then there’s these questions:

1. Is the Godhead, being one with Christ, capable of carrying imputed sin?
2. Can God pour His wrath upon Himself?
3. How can Jesus be tempted if He was still a part of the Godhead as God cannot be tempted according to James?
4. Can omniscient God “learn obedience”?

I indeed believe that Christ was both man (in flesh) and God (in essence). I also believe He was intimately connected to the Father in some way.

Your thoughts are always appreciated brother!

Jeffi July 19, 2010 at 11:51 pm

Paul, it’s good to see you so excited! The ways of the Lord truly amazing.

I wouldn’t necessarily discount the direct interaction of the Father & Jesus to man, but I agree that the Holy Spirit is referenced more in relation to hearts, etc.

I’m kind of second guessing the “grace” term or rather “universal grace” in reference to the lost. Every place I see grace seems to be directed at believers. Your thoughts?

And by the way, I think I’m completely missing your point in a few posts back with the paragraph that starts…”But if God DID do it via His Holy Spirit not residing on Pharaoh…..”
I’ve read it more than once and I’m getting more confused. Lol. Would you mind rephrasing that?

Jeffi July 20, 2010 at 12:00 am

Steve, after reading my post I feel the need to clarify:

I am NOT questioning the deity of Christ. Only the separation/connection aspect.
I believe all three persons were God and were One in whatever sense scripture implies. The implication is what I’m fuzzy on.

Again, gotta watch my words!

steve camp July 21, 2010 at 10:02 pm

Jeffi:

Some great questions you are asking and I really appreciate your interaction on this thread. I will try to be brief and will do my best to answer you.

You asked: What is the meaning of Christ being made “lower than the angels”?

It simply means incarnation. I assume you are referencing Heb. 2:9. This is speaking of His virgin birth – the Word becoming flesh. In Jewish beliefs, they had a very high almost superstitious view of angels. For example: if there was a great storm or hurricane – they would say that the angels had caused it as they moved among clouds.

So when the Scriptures record that the Creator of the angels humbled Himself for a while to become lower than they, it is speaking of our Lord’s incarnation.

You also asked, “What is meant when Jesus says, “And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.”?

This is referring to His preincarnate glory before He came to earth. (You are referencing from John 17 in our Lord’s High Priestly prayer to His Father before He was crucified.)

Steve Camp July 21, 2010 at 10:29 pm

And then there’s these questions:

Ok… let’s look at them one at a time.

1. Is the Godhead, being one with Christ, capable of carrying imputed sin?

No. That was His unique role as the God-Man. Jesus alone was to whom sin was imputed on our behalf (Rom 5:21).

2. Can God pour His wrath upon Himself?

Yes in this regard: God the Father poured out His wrath upon the God the Son as our divine Substitute with Jesus being a propitiation for our sins. IOW, Christ died for God and ultimately on the cross God saved us from Himself through the once for all sacrifice of Jesus Christ (Rom 3:21-26; Heb 2:17). As Luther once said, “God forsaken of God – who can fully understand it?”

3. How can Jesus be tempted if He was still a part of the Godhead as God cannot be tempted according to James?

Again, the writer of Hebrews is speaking of Him in incarnation. This is the meaning of Heb 4:15. He was tempted in all points as we are – yet without sin. Jesus in the flesh was both “able not to sin” (peccable) as well as “not able to sin” (impeccable). As impeccable He was completely incapable of sinning – ever! He could still be tempted to identify with us as His people (Heb 2:14), but without sin (Heb 7:26).

(Also, the one in the James reference you are referring is God the Father not Jesus in incarnation.)

4. Can omniscient God “learn obedience”?

Again, God the Son in incarnation as part of His humiliation – yes. But be careful here of drifting to the heresy of the Open Theists. God the Father does know all things from the beginning and the end and is not learning with His creation. He works all things after the counsel of His will for His purpose and glory.

Here is an excellent quote from John MacArthur on Heb 5:8 that I believe will be tremendously helpful to you on this issue:

“Christ did not need to suffer in order to conquer or correct any disobedience. In His deity (as the Son of God), He understood obedience completely. As the incarnate Lord, He humbled Himself to learn (cf. Lk 2:52). He learned obedience for the same reasons He bore temptation: to confirm His humanity and experience its sufferings to the fullest (see notes on 2:10; cf. Lk 2:52; Php 2:8).

Christ’s obedience was also necessary so that He could fulfill all righteousness (Mt 3:15) and thus prove to be the perfect sacrifice to take the place of sinners (1Pe 3:18). He was the perfectly righteous One, whose righteousness would be imputed to sinners (cf. Ro 3:24-26).”

Hope this helps a bit more Jeffi. Again, I appreciate your sincere desire for the truth.

Jeffi July 24, 2010 at 8:13 pm

Thanks Steve! I appreciate you taking the time to answer these many questions I assumed the convo was over and just checked here on a whim. So glad I did. Your answers make a lot of sense. I’m still working out some of the difficult areas of understanding, but I’m definitely seeing the difference.

I know we will never fully understand all Christ did for us and what that entailed, but I know the danger of mis-stating on this particular subject and I don’t want to do that.

If anything, this has caused me to take a step back and reconsider the cross- always good! The Lord is so faithful to bring us where He wants us!

Love in Christ, brother!

Does God Predetermine Our Sins?

John Piper

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